tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post7828262811057397769..comments2024-03-01T11:52:44.729-05:00Comments on Bat in the Attic: Building a better thief (for me at least)Robert Conleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-2420995305307845002017-11-11T08:51:54.760-05:002017-11-11T08:51:54.760-05:00Late to this discussion, but...
I'm surprised...Late to this discussion, but...<br /><br />I'm surprised nobody mentioned Lamentations of the Flame Princess, since several suggestions approximate those mechanics. porphyre77 comes closest with the 1-in-6 check.<br /><br />Anyway, in LotFP, all PCs have a default of level one in all adventuring skills. This includes thief skills, ranger skills, etc. A specialist increases total skill levels by two each experience level. Maximum skill level is six.<br /><br />The skill check is a simple d6 roll-under; at sixth level, the character fails only on rolling 12 on 2d6. <br /><br />I find this system allows you to have a pretty decent thief at low level if you specialize (hence the class name, I suppose). You can always increase the skill improvement rate to 3 or 4, which is useful if you add more skills. Since most old-school skill checks were on a d6, it's pretty easy to see some ways you could extend these skill mechanics to allow PCs to improve at that.<br /><br />It also gives non-thieves a chance. If a non-thief tries something thiefy but easy, like climbing a crumbling wall or sneaking with a lot of background noise, I have simple mechanic: combine the skill check with an ability check (1d20 roll under ability), and the attempt succeeds if either check passes. For a very challenging situation, combine with an ability check and succeed only if BOTH rolls pass.<br /><br />It's simple, and it yields the kinds of results I like.Edgewisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01975570824983584330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-32044020259992299752017-10-28T18:44:10.984-04:002017-10-28T18:44:10.984-04:00To make the Thief "better" at anything &...To make the Thief "better" at anything "thievery" , I opted for the following solution :<br />-most classes have 1 out of 6 chances of accomplishing most actions described; that is close to the 15% chances of the level 1 thief, and also consistent with the other actions resolution mechanices (you can interprete the 1 out of 6 chances to be surprised for a monster as the same thing than being able to hide and ambush it)<br />- the thief can progress<br />- I make the sucecs automatic if the dungeon level is lower than the thief's level. Otherwise he must pass a check. porphyre77https://www.blogger.com/profile/07620350717226228078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-72774076395302235702017-10-28T11:27:42.620-04:002017-10-28T11:27:42.620-04:00I do it as a surprise check for the target (usuall...I do it as a surprise check for the target (usually 1-2 on d6), then modified by the sneaker's dex modifier (+1 or -1) and -1 for metal armorScott Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067161332003628237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-4485216394810619302017-10-28T10:26:07.155-04:002017-10-28T10:26:07.155-04:00So a stealth check is like roll to hit his percept...So a stealth check is like roll to hit his perception armour class.Sean Robert Meaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16273566549106707316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-62163091904685333542017-10-28T07:33:28.118-04:002017-10-28T07:33:28.118-04:00Timely! I was just thinking about how I'd do ...Timely! I was just thinking about how I'd do 0-level B/X Alices last night.<br /><br />Starting from the point that a 1st level fighter is just a veteran and there are lots of those about, and taking inspiration from the equivalence of a normal man to a 0th level fighter on the to-hit and save charts and the observation that a fighter is not the only class that can fight, just the best at it in the long run, I figure that an adventurer is a 0th level thief. <br /><br />That's a 10% chance to pick locks, 5% trap save and chance to hide in shadows, 15% chance to pick pockets and tippy-toe, and the same 1 in 6 chance to hear noise that other humans get.<br /><br />Granted Rich's point that picking a lock successfully presupposes a bit of knowledge of how a lock works, but with maybe a half hour of explanation and no more than five minutes of prior practice I did pick a 2-pin fire-safe lock with a bent bobby-pin in about ten minutes. I'd guess most dungeon locks are not more sophisticated, since our locksmiths don't have access to modern tools.<br /><br />Off topic, but by extension I'd also let anyone with faith and a holy symbol turn skeletons on a 9 or zombies on an 11, provided they haven't shed blood with an edged weapon.<br />frijoles juniorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01423720423119688947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-67862251206111744682017-10-28T00:07:14.340-04:002017-10-28T00:07:14.340-04:00Batty cites the Moldvay "rule 0" caveat ...Batty cites the Moldvay "rule 0" caveat about "there's always a chance". That is true, as written, FOR PLAYER CHARACTERS, and by extension, leveled and classed NPCs. <br /><br />As discussed in the article, regarding the idea that a 1st level fighte is a "veteran" (Moldvay Basic even gives these characters that level title), the game assumed that level 1 PCs were still pretty green and inexperienced, but they had a slight edge over farmer john and his torch and pitchfork carrying angry peasant mob peers.<br /><br />If we do NOT grant the ability to attempt, and succeed, albeit rarely, at thief skill tasks to just about anyone and everyone, even the meager chances to perform those skills a 1st level Moldvay thief gets become special. He's not real good yet, he actually sucks at some of the abilities, but the average dude from his town can't even attempt those things.<br /><br />Same goes for non-thief PCs. You would not allow a thief or fighter PC to attempt to cast a Magic User spell or turn undead like a cleric, so why are you allowing the thief classes abilities be encroached upon by the other classes?<br /><br />Logic and "well, ANYONE can try and pick a lock!" reasoning be damned! This is the skill-set that defines the thief class! Either abandon the class completely, as some OD&D purists would advocate, or follow the assigned class roles and limit things to the class they belong to.<br /><br />Besides, give me 100 random average everyday 21st century "0 level npcs" and one $5 masterlock padlock like we all had on our high school gym locker. I'll wager that 90% or more of them have NO idea how to begin picking the lock. Grab a hammer and smash it, maybe, actually try and defeat the physical security of the lock, no way. The idea that any commoner can attempt this with anything but the most remote chance of success is a fallacy.chatdemonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14556014933064003125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-73931123308690899872017-10-27T23:52:01.194-04:002017-10-27T23:52:01.194-04:00In terms of levels... a level one guy is a compete...In terms of levels... a level one guy is a competent adventurer who might still get killed by a bad decision or bad luck. Luke Skywalker was level one by the time he escaped from the Death Star.<br /><br />The best adventurers are level 4-6. Level 6 is like, top of your game Indiana Jones territory.<br /><br />After that it's a matter of solving a few logistical problems on your way to ruling the barony and eventually the Realm. Like, a warlord king or wizard king or the head of a crusader order is like level 9. Conan the King at the height of his power was level 9.<br /><br />I do it so levels theoretically go up to 14, less for demi-men, but you can feel really powerful at level 4. Scott Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067161332003628237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-86094729464396361672017-10-27T16:32:56.484-04:002017-10-27T16:32:56.484-04:00Also, some kinds of people do better at some activ...Also, some kinds of people do better at some activities. Hobbits sneak around the best. Dwarfs are best at dungeon traps. Elfs are best at outdoor traps. Clerics are good at searching. Demi-men have the best hearing. Of course Elfs and dwarfs see in the dark. Scott Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067161332003628237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-41742717516994230872017-10-27T16:31:18.926-04:002017-10-27T16:31:18.926-04:00Making up your own thief is like the senior thesis...Making up your own thief is like the senior thesis of the OSR. Everyone who has thought about it at all has made his own. It's usually but not always a step towards making your own version of D&D. <br /><br />I got rid of the thief class. Anyone can do thief stuff with a low-to-moderate chance of success. 1 or 2 on d6, some skills modified by metal armor (-1), some by dexterity (+1 or -1) and some by wisdom +1 to -1).<br /><br />I did it this way because I love the thief and I want everyone who would go into a dungeon professionally to have a little thief in them. Scott Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067161332003628237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5904133056957353312.post-88540611244213262962017-10-27T15:48:12.808-04:002017-10-27T15:48:12.808-04:00I'm not disagreeing, or finding fault, just of...I'm not disagreeing, or finding fault, just offering my take.<br /><br />"Level 1 meant that the character was trained and ready to do things on their own. Somebody just out of the academy so to speak."<br /><br />Reasonable, as an apprenticeship continues after a person leaves trade school. But . . .<br /><br />"Level 3 a full fledged professional."<br /><br />Might be a bit early.<br /><br />Journeyman -- in construction -- are considered competent and are authorized to work in their trained field, but only as a fully qualified employee. A journeyman earns their license by education and supervised experience.<br /><br />A person capable of working as a self-employed individual is considered a Master Craftsman and will usually have been working in the trade for at least seven years.<br /><br />So I'm thinking 1st through 3rd level as an "Apprentice" thief, who works under the guidance of a higher level thief. The 4th to 6th level range as a "Journeyman" thief, able to work on their own, or run a small crew of apprentices. The 7th to 9th level range as a "Master Craftsman" thief, able to operate a Guild House and run several crews. <br /><br />I'm thinking 10th to 12th level for a "Renowned Expert" that other "Master Craftsmen" would look to, exercising authority over more than one Guild House, perhaps a whole city. The 13th to 15th level range would be the "Legendary" and Head of region for the Thieves' Guild.<br /><br />The 16th to 20th level range? The Grand Master of the Thieves' Guild.<br /><br />But that's just me. I like a touch -- just a touch -- of Real World realism in my game, so as to anchor the players' belief in what's happening.Mystic Scholarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07593826779432906953noreply@blogger.com